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Minerva
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Re: Defending our freedoms


I haven't really played many fighting games since I got the internet, and game graphics weren't very good back then. Way back when, my favorite game was probably Romance of the Three Kingdoms, a strategic game that involved going to war to conquer territory, but it never showed any of the battles. I wouldn't have put an age restriction on that game, and I don't see how blowing up tanks and planes is any worse. It's not like it's going to inspire some kid to buy a rocket launcher and start blowing planes out of the sky.

I don't think porn is inherently bad, as long as the people watching it realize that it's fantasy and not a representation of the real world. My point with that is that hard-core porn is some kids' only exposure to sex "education," and it messes up their relationships when they believe that's how things are supposed to work, just like taking part in a culture where women are often denigrated can instill those negative attitudes in them.


Actually I meant they use it between themselves, similarly to "you sonovabitch" and such, that threatening to kill and/or rape is everyday talk for them, but you're not wrong.


Such talk can be harmful even when it's just guys chatting amongst themselves, because it reinforces harmful attitudes. Here's a scenario. Two guys are hanging out at a bar. One guy sees a beautiful woman and says, "I'd rape that." His friend is uncomfortable, but laughs, figuring the guy doesn't literally mean that. If the guy really did mean that, his friend's laugh reinforces the idea that it's ok to rape a woman. This is a simplification, but this is basically how rape culture works.


I've never understood that kind of attitudes about women.


That's because you're a reasonable person. And being a reasonable person, it can be hard to understand how unreasonable so many other people can be.


I'd claim it exists much less in Finland than US for example. We do have pretty good record at gender equality.


I believe that. Of all the first-world countries, the USA is probably the most backwards when it comes to gender equality.


(On the other hand, no gay marriage here yet.)


This actually surprises me.


As far as I know (=this just the impression I have), few online games have as high percentage of female players as WoW.


Do the women let it be known that they're women while they're playing the game, or do you only know this from reading articles?



The gaming culture wasn't the only thing that screwed up Elliot Rodger's head, of course, but it does appear to be a major factor.


I find that hard to believe. Elliot Rodger had a troubled life with long list of problems. At most it was a factor on why he chose to target women instead of some minority or political group or government officials or whoever other mass killers have. And even for that he certainly had other reasons:


The gaming culture was only part of it, but I do believe it sent him in the wrong direction during a very formative time in his life. After that, he joined a pickup artist group, and then he joined a group that hates pickup artists because their tricks never got them laid. He also joined a bodybuilding group, where he was teased for being short and scrawny, and most of them didn't take him seriously when he started saying some scary things. These are all factors, but I think he joined the gaming community at the absolute worse time of his life, when he was just starting to go through puberty. All these other groups came after that, after he had already been influenced by the other players, and the other groups only reinforced the beliefs he had already formed about women.


Fair enough, that threat sounds somewhat credible, even though police apparently didn't think so. I'd like to think I wouldn't cancel for that, but that may be more a sign of arrogance than good judgment or bravery.


The police were alerted to some videos Elliot had made before his final one, but they didn't actually watch any of those videos before they went to his place to talk to him about the caller's concerns. Elliot told them it was just a misunderstanding, and the police's impression of him was that he was shy and polite. Elliot wrote about that visit in his manifesto, saying he was scared to death that the police would search his place and find the guns and ammo he had stocked up on for his massacre. He also deleted those videos right after the visit, then uploaded them again later, once it got closer to "Retribution Day."


I still think "misogyny" is a harsh and too easily used word on games and gaming, "sexism" being often more fitting and accurate.


I would say that the games have sexist elements in them, and some of the players are misogynists.


And while large amount of games have some faults on this, I believe the misogynists are a loud minority that doesn't represent gamers, gaming culture or the industry.


I agree that the misogynists are probably a loud minority, but when good people don't tell them they're wrong, this leads the misogynists to believe it's acceptable, and then they become even louder, and even more dangerous.


As for Sarkeesian, I took a look at Tropes vs Women and have to admit it is sensible and well-researched stuff. But also seems to me sort of one-sided lawyer talk.


It is sensible. If it seems like one-sided lawyer talk, maybe you just haven't seen the bigger picture yet.

I used to believe that misogyny was more of a religious thing, and that atheists were more enlightened than that. It wasn't until about two years ago that I realized how rampant misogyny is, even in atheist circles, and it was a huge wakeup call for me. It isn't just gaming, and it isn't just religion. It's everywhere, and people who care about equality need to be aware of it and speak up when these attitudes rear their ugly head.

Last revised by Lesigner Girl, 10/19/2014, 2:16 am


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10/19/2014, 2:11 am Link to this post PM Lesigner Girl Read Blog
 
Kaunisto Profile
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Citizen

Registered: 01-2008
Province: Finland
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Re: Defending our freedoms


I never got into RotTK games, I'm under impression (being only familiar with the oldest ones) that there's too much micro management. More a Civilization or Master of Orion man myself.
I don't think abstract, board game like strategy games need age restrictions just because their subject is war, but when it comes to action games where you pull the trigger, the morality of act of killing should be considered. There's dangerous attitude of "it's OK to kill people when you don't see them", of which one could pull parallels to US wars of last two decades and their news footage.
Related to which, this guy counts as defender of freedom, on one way or another.

Do the women let it be known that they're women while they're playing the game, or do you only know this from reading articles?

I've been for over decade in a gaming clan active in number of games (at best there were couple hundred members, now tens). In recent years they've mostly concentrated on WoW. most of the "officers" of the clan being female, I'm pretty sure none of them have ever hidden their sex. In fact I recall seeing a clan portrait and I think pretty much everyone had used their real sex. Kind of boring considering we're talking about RPG, but then again it's not like I've ever played a female character, except in games where you can have multiple.


I suppose I tend to sometimes be naive and idealistic about how far civilization has come. I was very surprised and shocked of a recent documentary about the kind of open racism that still happens here.

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10/19/2014, 8:29 am Link to this post PM Kaunisto
 
Lesigner Girl Profile
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Minerva
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Re: Defending our freedoms


I didn't realize there was more than one RotTK game, so I must have had the first one.


I don't think abstract, board game like strategy games need age restrictions just because their subject is war, but when it comes to action games where you pull the trigger, the morality of act of killing should be considered. There's dangerous attitude of "it's OK to kill people when you don't see them", of which one could pull parallels to US wars of last two decades and their news footage.


You have a point there. Someone might not try to shoot a plane down with a grenade launcher, but they could make homemade bombs and plant them in public areas.


Related to which, this guy counts as defender of freedom, on one way or another.


I give him a lot of credit for trying to make the best of a bad situation, and for speaking out about it later. I can't imagine how hard it was for him, or how deep the mental scars must be now.


Brandon Bryant said:

I tried to get out multiple times and do a different job, and I was consistently told that it’s the needs of the Air Force come first, and so I did it. I buckled down, and I did it. I did the job. I did it as best as I could, because I was scared that someone would come in, and they wouldn’t do it very well. And I—I mean, I paid a spiritual and mental price for that. And I think that’s something that people really discount, because I didn’t take any physical injury through it.


For anyone who doesn't want to watch or read the whole interview, he believes he killed a child in one of his missions, but the report (not written by him) only said, "enemies killed in action, executed to standards."


I suppose I tend to sometimes be naive and idealistic about how far civilization has come. I was very surprised and shocked of a recent documentary about the kind of open racism that still happens here.


I was naive, too, until I came across one thing, which led me to other things, and before I knew it, it seemed like I was seeing it everywhere. I knew sexism exists, because I've experienced it my whole life, but I was surprised just a few years ago to see how angry some men will get when this is pointed out.

I guess it's just like anything else, if it comes so easy to us, it can be hard to believe that it's so difficult for others to grasp. I think this might be the problem with the lack of voting among the more reasonable people here in the US. It's like they still don't realize how bad our GOP is, and don't feel it's worth the effort to vote them out.

Likewise with racism. I was surprised several years ago when I visited some family in Arkansas, and one of my cousins told me that (according to local opinions there) it's worse for a white person to be friends with a black person than it is to be black, because black people don't choose to be black, but white people do choose to be friends with them. After that, I thought such blatant racism was limited to the southern red states, and was surprised again when I found out it was much more widespread than that. Obama's election really brought it out into the open. The GOP have been trying to sabotage him the whole time, and it's like they are trying to "prove" that all black people are thugs, incompetent, or both, because they're afraid of losing their white man privilege.

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10/19/2014, 11:19 pm Link to this post PM Lesigner Girl Read Blog
 
Kaunisto Profile
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Citizen

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Re: Defending our freedoms



I didn't realize there was more than one RotTK game, so I must have had the first one.

Seriously?! There's tons of them, RotTK XII came just couple years ago.

Do you know what RotTK is? Besides being sort of national epic of China - based on history - it's an asian popular culture phenomenon that could be compared to Robin Hood: to Chinese and Japanese the main characters and their classic looks and weapons are known the way we know what Robin or Tuck or Little John looks like.
The communist government has always liked the subject because it's about the formation of a unified China.

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10/20/2014, 10:37 am Link to this post PM Kaunisto
 
Lesigner Girl Profile
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Minerva
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Re: Defending our freedoms



Seriously?!


Yep. That's how long it has been since I stopped playing games on a semi-regular basis, but I do remember that it was based on the historical splintering and reunification of China. I usually played as Cao Cao. emoticon

Last revised by Lesigner Girl, 10/20/2014, 8:03 pm


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10/20/2014, 8:02 pm Link to this post PM Lesigner Girl Read Blog
 
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Ignore me.

Registered: 01-2007
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Re: Defending our freedoms


I never played any 'games'....though my son has since he was quite young. Some that I bought for him, he was too young to buy for himself. But each person is mature as an individual. I thought he was old enough to handle the nature of the games.
I often sat folding laundry watching him play....he liked WOW, Dungeons and Dragons...I actually liked them, especially D & D....they played out like a movie and had really awesome music. I still have one on my Ipod from Dragon Age: Origins.
My point is. He has complete respect for women. Never had a problem with them either....seemed they gravitated to him because he was "safe" as one girl put it. But he was always a gentlemen and a gentle man.
Now he and his wife play online video games....she certainly does not think they are sexist...or she just is so good she gets her 'character'..major kick ass! emoticon

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10/20/2014, 9:50 pm Link to this post PM Queenyforever Read Blog
 
Kaunisto Profile
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Re: Defending our freedoms


His wikipedia page has interesting stuff.
I've probably played on him only in fighting game Sango Fighter.

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10/20/2014, 10:01 pm Link to this post PM Kaunisto
 
Lesigner Girl Profile
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Minerva
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Re: Defending our freedoms


Queeny, your son is a good man because you and your hubby raised him well. emoticon

Kaunisto, I never played that one, but I would probably choose Cao Cao for that, too. emoticon

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10/23/2014, 2:38 pm Link to this post PM Lesigner Girl Read Blog
 
Kaunisto Profile
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Citizen

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Re: Defending our freedoms


(I obviously missed Q, starting to post and then doing something else for a while before submitting it - reading about Cao Cao likely.)

I've played a number of D&D games of course, but actually none online. Though in RPGs I generally prefer Japanese ones.
My favorite D&D game is an old dragon flight simulator Dragon Strike (based on DragonLance books). In it you are a rider on dragon and try hit enemy dragons(/wyverns) with lance or make your dragon shoot them with breth, but if you get close the character may automatically hit them with sword or your dragon may claw and bite them - or vice versa. A great detail is that enemy can knock you off and you fall, but if you were high enough and your dragon is fast enough, it can save you. On some levels you can also land and have your dragon eat enemy archers emoticon

I wonder what age limit did that have...

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10/23/2014, 10:27 pm Link to this post PM Kaunisto
 
Lesigner Girl Profile
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Minerva
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Re: Defending our freedoms


Good question. It might be too old to have an age rating. emoticon

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dragonstrike

I might have enjoyed that game back in 1990. emoticon

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